Shop Talk with Mary C. Moore of Aevitas Creative Management by Rey M. Rodríguez

During a Storyteller’s Blog interview with Reyna Grande, she mentioned that after she left her creative writing program at UC Santa Cruz she knew how to tell a story, but she didn’t know anything about the business of publishing. It depressed her that she did not know how to navigate the publishing industry. To soften this blow for IAIA students and to give our readers the tools necessary to get published, occasionally, we will interview experts in the field to provide advice for emerging writers.

Recently at a Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrator’s Workshop in Los California, I met Mary C. Moore. I told her that I was an MFA student at the Institute of American Indian Arts and I asked her if she would agree to be interviewed. She said yes and what follows is a wide-ranging conversation on her background, philosophy of being an agent, and how to manuever the publishing industry.

Mary’s first career was in field biology. Her job took her all over the world, from Ghana to Costa Rica to Maui. Ultimately, she found a job at the San Francisco Zoo. But her love of books proved to be as strong as her love of animals. While working at the zoo she earned her MFA in Creative Writing and English at Mills College, Oakland, California. She started her literary agent career at Kimberley Cameron & Associates before moving to Aevitas Creative Management, a full-service literary agency, home to more than forty agents in New York, San Francisco, Boston, Washington DC, Los Angeles, Detroit, Nashville, London, and Barcelona, representing scores of award-winning authors, performers, thinkers, artists, and public figures.

Based in the Bay Area, Mary represents a wide range of fiction writers. She enjoys working with clients with a view for the long term and is comfortable representing multiple genres/age ranges, although she prefers to begin a partnership in one genre before jumping to another. 

Mary C. Moore, welcome to the Storyteller’s Blog of the Chapter House Literary Journal for the Institute of American Indian Arts.

Thank you for having me.

We're so grateful to have you here. We usually ask on this blog how did you get into writing? But in your case, how did you become a literary agent? 

My origin story is somewhat unique. I was an advanced reader and started reading novels at the age of four. But I grew up in a rural, poor area. So thank goodness for the local library, otherwise, books were hard to come by. But I never imagined a person could work with books, except at the library. We were poor, on food stamps, but it was not generational, my mother had come from money. So college was always in the cards, but as I had to pay for it and I didn’t know one could have a career in books, I picked a degree I felt I could have a stable career in. 

So I went into biology and got my Bachelor’s of Science in Evolution, Behavior, and Ecology. As an environmental scientist, I ended up traveling the world. Studying things like endangered butterflies and birds. I worked in places like Costa Rica and Maui. It sounds glamorous. But as any environmental field biologist will tell you there's a lot of downtime and often you don't have access to the internet. So I started to fill my time by writing my first novel. And I had this kind of “Oh, my gosh, I love this. I want to be a writer” realization. I wanted to write the next big, fantasy, franchise book, the big splashy dream that many writers have.

I moved to the Bay Area and got a job at the San Francisco Zoo. I continued to write as I worked as a full-time zookeeper. I finished my first novel and tried to query agents. But it was just such a mysterious process. I couldn't understand it. I was getting nowhere. I got a couple of bites, but nothing was happening. So I shelved it. I still believed my career was field biology, as much as I loved books and writing, it didn’t seem like a viable long-term plan. So I was looking for opportunities for growth in my field. Then, while I was working with the big carnivores, there was a major incident at the zoo, which I won't get into detail here, but anybody can read about it online. 

I was the youngest zookeeper on staff in the carnivore department and after the incident, management made a lot of frenzied changes. They shifted me down to the children's zoo to work with the goats. And although goats are really cute, taking care of them wasn't what I had thought my career was going to look like. One day, I was cleaning a cockatoo's cage, and on the bottom of the cage was this newspaper, and on the newspaper was an advertisement for an MFA program in Creative Writing. I had also just gotten my GRE test scores back, and although I had done okay in the quantitative reasoning section (which I needed to go to grad school for field biology), my verbal reasoning score had been in the 98th percentile. At that moment I realized I was on the wrong career path. So I decided to work part-time and get my MFA in Creative Writing and English.

I wrote a second novel in my MFA program. I was confident I did everything right. I attempted to get another agent, and once again, the process flattened me. After talking to a peer who had done an internship at a literary agency, I thought, Wow, I would love to do that and understand the process of publishing a book. 

I got an internship at Kimberly Cameron & Associates in the Bay Area and fell in love with being an agent. I loved writing, but I discovered I still loved reading more. As an agent, you are so deeply connected to the book-building process. It’s exhilarating to help writers bring their stories to readers and fans. I worked at KC&A for a time, and then I moved over to Aevitas Creative Management last year. And it has continued from there. So that's my origin story.

That's great. What does an agent do?

Agents represent authors. The basic premise is we sell your work to publishers and negotiate the contract on your behalf. There are 5 major publishers in New York City. There are also, a handful of strong, independent publishers. Most won't accept un-agented submissions, and if they do, their offer/contract is going to be what’s in the best interest of the publisher, not yours. An experienced agent will not only get your work in front of the people who can publish it, they will also make sure you are getting industry-standard fair terms for your contract. 

Once you have a contract, then an agent will act as an emissary on your behalf. Generally, once a publisher steps in, your agent will step back, but will be in the wings if needed. For example, if the cover concept comes in and you hate it, but you don’t want to sour your conversation with your editor, your agent can step in and have an aside with the editor. 

In the meantime, your agent will also be working on your book’s subrights. Writers are usually familiar with the concept of film rights, but there are many others, audio, foreign, book club, large print, etc. Subrights can be another form of income for a writer; a good agent understands this and either has experience selling subrights, is at an agency with internal subrights departments, or works with subrights agents/agencies. Or if these rights get sold to the publisher, the agent will have negotiated a fair split for you.

Beyond this, depending on your writing goals and what kind of genre you work in, you and your agent will be planning for future projects, shaping your career trajectory, and preparing for the ups and downs of being a traditionally published career author.  

And now, tell me a little bit about your agency. How does it fit in the world of agencies?

Yes, my agency is Aevitas Creative Management, and it is one of the largest literary agencies in the country. It is based out of New York City, but we have agents all over the country and all over the world. Our agents represent the entire range of genres, nonfiction, fiction, children’s literature, etc. You can find out what each agent specializes in by visiting the Aevitas website. We also have an internal fantastic foreign rights team that works hard to sell our clients’ work in translation and a wonderful internal film team that works closely with the film industry.

What advice would you have for an emerging writer who's trying to get an agent? And when should they try to get an agent?

That's a really good question. Often many writers do it too early. They write their first draft and then, eager to make it big, they try to find an agent. But that first draft is going to be really rough, and if a writer hasn’t thought through what they want their career to look like, i.e. what genre they would be comfortable writing in for at least a few books. This inexperience is going to be obvious to an agent. It is important to have perspective, agents get thousands of queries. Myself, I get 20-40 a day. So, just as you would for a job application, you want to polish your submission, make it professional. 

As a start, you’ve edited your manuscript to the best of your ability, had beta readers and critique partners review it. If it's literary, science fiction, or young adult, then you want to read widely within that genre. You should know the audience. You should know the people who are reading in the genre because you are that person. Right? You know the target audience. You know the people that are reading it. So then, if you have something that you've written within that space you're ready to at least start looking for an agent.

Interesting, so should it be in the same general genre?

It depends. If you enjoy reading both middle-grade literature and upmarket book club thrillers, and you read in both, then there's no reason why you can't write in one or the other. But if you find an agent for a particular book say an upmarket thriller. That agent, might not represent middle grade. They may not work in that field. They may not know the middle-grade editors. So all they're going to be doing is pitching your upmarket thriller, and if they sell it then your upmarket thriller publisher is going to be looking for you to write at least a few books within that genre.

Hmm.

And so, it's not that you're stuck. It's not that you have to write in only one genre. It's more that you have to think of it as you're laying out your career path. You're creating your audience. You're reaching a certain audience, and if you publish one book that's an upmarket thriller you've reached a hundred people. You've reached all those readers. And then the next book you write out, you release a middle-grade fantasy. All of those 100 readers who read your upmarket thriller aren't going to want to read your middle-grade book. And so you've lost all that momentum you've garnered from that first release.

That makes sense.  So now you've gotten the attention of an agent. What should you ask the agent before you agree to have this partnership with them?

That is a great question, and even before you query, I emphasize and urge every writer who's looking for an agent to do your research on each agent and their agency to determine if they are a good fit for you. What often happens is writers get caught up in personalizing their query letters to the agent, “I need to do all this research and convince them that I know them.” But, as long as you're querying an agent that represents the genre you're writing, that agent is going to consider your work. It's more important to feel the agent/agency is someone/someplace you want to work with than it is to personalize your query letter. Because your relationship with your agent should always be a partnership. It should not be an uneven power dynamic.

Your submissions should start small and focused. Hit the agents that you think are a perfect fit for your writing. After two weeks or so if there hasn’t been any movement, go wider, and expand your search to any agency you would be interested in working with. It’s understandable if you try as many as you can reasonably submit to. Hopefully, you’ve been selective enough that when you get an offer of representation, you are already on board with their background, it’s more about having a vibe check. Good questions to ask: how do they handle sub rights? How do they handle communication? Can you speak to other clients on their client list? And if so, is there a way to contact them? What is their editorial vision for the book? Most experienced agents will come in and may already answer all of these questions before you even ask them.

How do you feel on the phone call? Does this agent love your work and are they interested in what you have to say? Are they interested in your future work? If this agent doesn't feel very experienced, then does their agency have a mentorship in place that they can learn from an experienced agent? It can be a savvy choice as a debut author to sign with a newer agent, but do they have all the things in place that will support your career at the agency, even if the newer agent is still feeling their way through the industry? If it is a more experienced agent, do they have the time for you? What is their communication style? Will they continue to work with you if your first project doesn’t sell? And if so, how does that process work? 

There are no wrong answers to these questions, it’s more about what you want in a partnership, does their work style fit yours? 

What are good strategies in terms of finding an agent?

So I recommend Querytracker.net. They have a list of probably 90% of all the agents in the US, Canada, and the UK and are organized by genre. Querytracker.net is a great resource for getting basic information about an agent, i.e. which agents represent your genre. Once you have a name and agency, you can go directly to their website. The only ones that don't have websites tend to be film agencies and sub-rights agencies. But most legitimate literary agencies have good websites. Another option is Publishers’ Marketplace, which lists most of the recent deals done by agents. Most editors and agents in the industry use it. However, there is a paywall. I believe every November or December, they have 2 weeks where it's free to the public, so you can utilize those 2 weeks to do as much research as you possibly can. It is complicated to navigate, and I only recommend it for savvy experienced queriers, it is not necessarily the place to start when you're beginning your search.

I see. And then what about these different conventions like the Association of Writers and Writers Program (AWP)? I met you at a Society for Children's Book Writers and Illustrators Workshop. What do you think about those opportunities?

Yes, those conferences are great for writers, if you can afford them. Or if you can get a scholarship to attend them. I would not go to those conferences expecting to get an agent. Go to meet other writers that are in a similar space to build a support network, find critique partners, etc. And to the agents/editors that are there, don’t pitch your project unless invited to (or if you’re in a pitch session with them), but you can ask broader questions. I'm surprised how few macro questions authors have for me like the kinds of questions you're asking right now. Maybe they don't feel comfortable. Or, they're just overly focused on their particular project. But understanding the macro picture of the industry and how the book publishing industry works can be so helpful. 

What is a pitch session?

It depends on what the conferences have developed or have decided on. There are meetings between agents and authors anywhere from 3, to 10, to 15 minutes. It's an opportunity for you to sit down and pitch your book to an agent. A pitch session in person can be great in terms of checking out each other's vibe. Is this agent approachable? Or someone I would like to work with? But I’m not going to offer representation without reading your writing. So when writers sit down with me at a pitch session, I often say, we can use this as practice, and I can give you feedback on your pitch rather than tell you yes or no in this particular moment.

What's necessary to include in a pitch?

This is a great question and is something under-taught to many writers. It is a separate skill from writing a novel or writing short stories. An easy way to think about it is the back cover of a book. You read the back cover copy when you're deciding what book you want to buy or check out. I urge writers to trace it to its source and think, okay if that back cover is convincing a reader to read my book then that's what needs to be in my query letter.

An agent is just your first reader. If you get that back cover copy right then the agent's going to be interested in reading it. Then the editor is going to be interested in reading it. Then the publishing and marketing team that that editor has to convince to buy the book will be interested in reading it, and then the book reviewers will be interested in reading it, and the book buyers of the bookstores will be interested in reading it and then you get to your final person the reader who's going to walk in and buy the book. That person is going to be interested in reading it. So it's not that you need to get an agent. It's that you need to have a firm understanding of who your readers are, and how to convince them to buy your books, and once you understand that you know the rest of the process should be pretty clear. 

If you go to the bookstore or you go to the library, or you go on Amazon read 20 of the back cover copies all at once and that's going to start to develop your eye. Hone it so that you see how pitches are written, and you're going to see what is necessary. And sometimes what I do is I take one of those back cover copies that have a similar idea as something that I want to publish. And I put the characters from the other book into this book and then I develop it from there. And I mean, obviously, it's completely rewritten by the end of it. But it is a good jumping-off place. That can be a good start for some people who are struggling.

What about comps?

Comps stand for a comparative title and the origin of comparative titles is actually from the publisher. When a publisher decides to buy a book they are taking a risk on a new author. How do they know what kind of profit this book will bring in if the author doesn’t have any sales previously? 

Say an editor falls in love with your manuscript. That editor has to pitch the entire team at their imprint and convince them to buy this book. The editor needs to present and develop what's called a P&L, a profit and loss statement. How much is this book going to cost to produce and how much are we going to profit off of it? If you are an unknown author, and you have no sales then the only way that they determine those numbers is from the comparative titles. So they take titles that they believe a specific reader is going to pick up at the bookstore, and they compare. So they take 2 titles, and they run the numbers on those 2 titles and say, Okay, so title X sold 25,000 copies this year, and title Z sold, 30,000 copies this year. Therefore I think that this debut novel will sell in the range of 25 to 30,000 copies. They'll present it to the imprint team and they'll say, this debut book is going to sell this many copies, and that will give us a profit of X amount.

So when you start backtracking to the agent when we're pitching to the editors, we use those comparative titles to say here's your profit and loss statement. Here's your profit. Here are these books that did well, so this book should do equally well.

Now going back to your question, if you truly understand comps and include two fantastic ones, that can elevate your submission. That being said, most writers, especially new writers, don't understand the use of comps. They say things like my book is like this book, because you know the character is blonde, and it's like this other book because the character loses her husband in it. They are not telling us anything about the readers who might read the book. And often the books are too old, for example, the sales of Outlander aren’t going to help an editor create an accurate P&L statement for your debut. But we agents understand that and we're not expecting you to have these perfect comp titles. 

How important is putting your background?

For nonfiction, background is important.

With fiction, it depends. If you can lend authenticity to your story, do mention it. Like if you're writing a cozy mystery about a murder that is solved by a knitting circle, and if you are a member of a knitting circle or you knit, and you have a blog where people follow you based on your knitting; do tell us.

I like this.

Yeah, it can bring an authenticity to the narrative that can be interesting in your bio, and if you are writing something that's based on your own identity and you are willing to disclose that, that can be super helpful as well. But if you’re writing something that is not at all connected to your life, i.e. a high fantasy with dragons, then simply include in your bio how much you love dragons and how voraciously you read fantasy. 

I recommend that all writers have a website. It doesn't have to be one that's super fancy, just your calling card. Include a small picture of yourself and a brief bio of you as a writer. If you have short stories published, you want to put those links there. If you use social media in a professional sense for writing, put those links there. It’s super helpful for the agent to give a quick click and learn who you are.

So tell me about the revision process once I’ve gotten an agent.

Yes, so this can vary depending on the agent. And usually, it varies, depending on how experienced the agent is. So a newer agent is going to be hungrier, right? They're still building their list. They're keen on a certain type of project. They're going to be more willing to put in far more editorial time than someone who's 10 years into their career and has 40-odd fiction clients, and, you know, has to edit each of those clients. So it varies but in general with fiction, it has to be polished to have a chance to be bought by a publisher. The agent will have developmental edits and a vision for it, and that's something that you can talk about in your call. When they make the offer of representation they will lay out their vision for it. They might not give you the full editorial letter until you accept their offer of representation. But they should have a clear idea of where this book is going to go.

And then, it's something to remember that you do not have to agree with everything they say. If something feels wrong to you, then you can push back, and it should be a collaborative conversation. It shouldn't be like the agent tells you what to do, and then you do it. It should be very collaborative. But in general, it's going be that the agent’s experience is going to bring in a new point of view and make you think about things a different way.

And I think with a new writer, a debut writer. That first manuscript with an agent will probably go through 2 to 3 to 4 rounds of revision, if not 6, 7, or 8, depending on where it was at when they first signed it. With the newer agent, it might even go through more.

There can be a point if you feel like you're spinning your wheels, though, and you do feel this isn't working. You can talk to them. And maybe what's happening is that you're not achieving the vision that they had. And that's okay. It's not your fault. But maybe, you are both on a different wavelength. And that's something to just bring up to the agent and say, I've done 7 rounds of revision. Are you just feeling like this isn't working for you? And then, maybe you know you open up that door for them to be honest with you.

That being said you should feel like each project and each revision is improving the manuscript. You should not feel like you're just slugging through something.

It is hard work, but it should feel right for you.

Okay. Now, the submission process.

So a question to ask an agent when you get that phone call is, “What is your vision for my manuscript?” Because agents will have a different submission process for different books. It depends on the genre you're writing in. For example in the literary genre readership is small and you may want to publish with a distinguished indie publisher. The hope is that you win an award, and that parlays into the income that you're looking for to make it as a writer. If you're writing something commercial, you’ll be going to the major imprints. Aiming to be a book club pick—-the Jenna Book Club or the Reese's Book Club. Experienced agents understand that and know how to navigate that system. They will hopefully have the patience and put in the time to develop your career. 

So I know you have an interest in diversifying the publishing industry. What's your advice for authors of color and other marginalized folks who are trying to get into the business?

Many agents are looking for that authentic narrative. If you can bring a fresh perspective to a genre, whether you're writing a fantasy, a mystery, a picture book, etc. If you can give the characters a fresh perspective, that can be interesting to agents and editors. 

I will say, however, trust your instincts. If you feel uncomfortable in a phone call with an agent, maybe it feels like they're only interested in you as a client because of your identity, or maybe they aren’t sensitive in the way you’d prefer in a partner, then follow those instincts, and don't sign with that agent or sign with caution. The vibe check I spoke about earlier is really important, on so many levels. 

You can be upfront with your questions, too. If you feel unsafe exposing your identity, make that clear. Be upfront with your agent and ask them if they can navigate challenges that arise. Your agent should be your partner and if they don’t share your identity, they should at least feel like a solid ally. You should feel comfortable relaying to your agent that you hope for an editor who understands your lived experience or if a certain industry connection makes you uncomfortable. Also, consider what you want as a bigger picture. Do you want to utilize your identity as part of who you are as a writer? Do you want that to be part and parcel of the concepts that you're writing, whether or not it's within genre or not? Is that something you want? Or is that something you don't want? Have that kind of clarity for yourself ahead of time, because I do think that industry professionals will latch on to a person’s identity as a way to sell them, so knowing how you feel about that ahead of time can be important and helpful for you. 

There are a lot of exciting things happening with diverse voices in young adult literature and middle grade and it's starting to finally filter into the adult space. You can find the agents who are working with and representing diverse writers by reading the acknowledgments of books you enjoy, often the agent will be listed.

Any last words of advice for emerging writers or students in an MFA Program?

Yes, be prepared to work on the next project. 

It is important if you're looking to be a career writer. There is a difference between being an artist and being a career writer in the industry. That's not to say that there's not a lot of crossover. You can be both. But do remember that if you're looking to be traditionally published by traditional publishers and have your book in all the bookstores then remember that you are selling content. 

Try not to be offended by the rejections. The professionals are trying to fit you into a box. So that means they're trying to fit you onto a shelf, right? And so, if your work isn't getting picked up, and it doesn't “fit” that shelf at that bookstore; that's not a narrative that you need to take in inwardly. It just means that box needs to change and maybe you'll be the change. 

But remember that, too, when you're querying agents and you're getting rejections. People may say, “I love the writing. You're a strong writer, but I just didn't have a vision for the concept.” Remember to keep writing, because the more content you have the more odds there are that you're going to find something that does land. 

I'm always telling my clients, “Let's think about the next project.” Each project's going to be better than the last. A writer who's working on a project for 10 years maybe it's time to move on. Not always. But in general, there's a reason why you've been working on it for 10 years, and maybe it's time to move on. I know that there are many projects and successful writers out there that take a very long time to write one novel. But you do need to think of things in terms of content. It is a little bit of a grind. It is a little bit of a mill. They're looking for you to produce content to produce books to produce income. So that's something to think about and consider when you're looking for that traditional route. If that is something you are ready for and interested in then go for it.

Well, Mary, thank you so much. This interview was such a wealth of information, and it's such a privilege to meet you. Thank you, again, for your generosity of wisdom and time, and your willingness to share it.

Rey M. Rodríguez is a writer, advocate, and attorney. He lives in Pasadena, California. He is working on a novel set in Mexico City and a non-fiction history of a prominent nonprofit in East LA. He has attended the Yale Writers' Workshop multiple times and Palabras de Pueblo workshop once. He also participates in Story Studio's Novel in a Year Program. He is a first-year fiction creative writing student at the Institute for American Indian Arts' MFA Program. This fall, his poetry is published in Huizache. His other interviews and book reviews can be found at La Bloga, the world's longest-established Chicana-Chicano, Latina-Latino literary blog, Chapter House's Storyteller’s Blog, Pleiades Magazine, and the Los Angeles Review.